@liaizon this isn't compatible with Signal proper is it? I heard they don't allow any app but their own to use the services
@puffinus_puffinus no its a different network, signal is not federated at all. and neither is this...
@liaizon wow, this is just good news to me. New fork of Signal? New foundation? Interesting. Thank you for sharing this.
@ademalsasa Loki has been around a while, they are in the blockchain space so many will be suspicious of them I am sure. But the app is GPL-3.0 so if they start getting too crypto-y on us at least we have a good fork of Signal to start with...
@liaizon okay, I hear you. I said new foundation as I compare it to the FSF.
Interesting, blockchain space? And the program is GNU GPL? And good fork of Signal? Really, awesome. But the most appealing thing (outside of licensing) is it doesn't require phone number.
I don't have phone number so this seems as a solution to me.
@liaizon ah, yes, one more: and the name is easy to remember. Either it is Loki or Session.
PS: I started everything about internet privacy from FSFE blog post in 2016 "Why Privacy is More Than Crypto" https://blogs.fsfe.org/h2/2016/05/31/why-privacy-is-more-than-crypto. What do you think about this article?
@liaizon I read the website, it says "No Phone Numbers" and it says again "Sync Across Devices" among other features which are all appealing to me who seek software freedom, security, and privacy for mainstream person.
Just seeing these, I feel like seeing the mainstream Telegram but with power of Signal plus metadata removal. From this point alone, wow, it is awesome. Thanks once again.
@ademalsasa XMPP is much cooler.
@liaizon yes, technically XMPP is much cooler. I think XMPP+OMEMO is really nice solution. But mainstream people do not know XMPP per se, even though popular chat programs perhaps using it.
@noorul you can set a screen name, but I don't think you can search by that screen name
How do Session usernames work?
#Session usernames are set locally on your device, and are sent to your contacts whenever you send them a message. There is no global database of usernames, which means two users can share the same username. Your Session ID functions as your truly unique identifier.
@liaizon what a great approach! Nice!
But as it seems Session is unable to communicate with Signal, right? So there are two different messengers operating in two different networks now.
@realramnit signal is centralized and requires every user to have a phone number to participate in its network. so yes this is a fully new network...
@liaizon I was hoping they somehow managed to bridge into the centralized signal networks. message-format and distribution must be similar. but I can see a world where moxie would block any bridge people would try to establish.
@realramnit hmm I had to look up Signal bridges cause I didn't know if there were any but I see https://github.com/matrix-hacks/matrix-puppet-signal which I hadn't heard about...
@liaizon my guess is, that it should not be to complicated to bridge in. you would need a tor exit for it which leaves you a bit exposed. But I think it would be a huge boost for switching to sessions. most people will not install another messenger and try to convince their contacts to switch as well.
@muppeth I am not “promoting” it. I was interested in exploring what has been done in a specific area. I have been in hundreds of discussions were people recommend Signal (which I really dont trust anymore specifically because of phone number usage) and there are obviously many people interested in learning about this fork. Happy to hear people’s ideas about how this is a dead end. But dont shit on me for talking about it in the first place.
@muppeth I don’t know if you’ve been following, but I have mostly been talking about how great XMPP is and how I’m excited how fast it’s moving forward. that doesn’t mean I’m not going to talk about what other folks are doing.
... and I do not worry about starting a new network for #session!
@liaizon @realramnit Because, that's actually where I felt the pull towards Signal before: people who just got aware, that WhatsApp(!) maybe is really not a good choice - they discovered Signal or Telegram as an alternative. For those folks now I feel I have something to propose, which gives me way less headache. Nice, I'm happy with that, for now.
@liaizon I stopped skimming their whitepaper at "Authorisation for a server to operate on the network is attained through the server operator conducting a special staking transaction, which requires that an operator provably lock an amount of Loki cryptocurrency assigned to their node (approximately 18,550 Loki coins; equivalent USD7,420 [..]). This staking system provides a defense against Sybil attacks by limiting attackers based on the amount of financial resources they have available."
@galaxis oof I didn't read the white paper... So the messenger is currently federated then? as long as you have $7,420 "staked" to your node? talk about inclusive lol
@liaizon As a user you probably don't have to care about that part of the system - that seems just their method to make it harder to be part of the backend pool that provides onion routing and media storage. "No one has the kind of money to infiltrate our onion infra" seems like wishful thinking.
Not sure how they want to compensate participants that run that part of the infrastructure - either by printing out money from their blockchain, or there's some plan to monetize users in the future?
@liaizon I initially only wrote about that in German yesterday, since I didn't have an English source (still don't), but according to a talk during 36C3, the underlying Lokinet project is rooted in the *chan scene - first announced on EndChan, promoted by 8kun. I'd be surprised if the name is by accident.
Therefore, the Session messenger project is inherently untrustable to me, all the layers down.
(36C3, "Let's play Infokrieg", from minute 27: https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-10639-let_s_play_infokrieg#t=1620)
@liaizon I feel like it is a really elaborate ICO.
@liaizon nice is an idea to paint with acrylic for me
@liaizon two things I'm wondering about. 1) why did they remove video calls? 2) why is it better better than Signal? Only because it removes certain metadata? It isn't like your can host the server part of it, it isn't federated, right?
@RyuKurisu the main thing is removal of phone numbers. which was a major hurdle for many people...
@liaizon Looks really good 👍 It fixes some of the main reasons not to use Signal:
- Signal is hosted at Amazon in the United States -> Session is hosted at OVH in Canada (did a IP lookup on the hardcoded filesharing server)
- Signal wants personal details like your phone number -> Session uses a random ID.
- Former Whatsapp bosses work for Signal now -> Session is independent.
- Signal disallows independent apps by third-parties -> Let's give Session a chance to do better.
- The Signal boss hates decentralization and talks shit about it -> Session seems to be open for that and looks like some form of decentralized network in the background.
I'd never ever install Signal because it's just awful shit but I think Session is really worth a try 😃
Web hosted on cloudfare. Bad beginnings with this app.
@abdhessuk @liaizon Yes but the API which is used by the app for server connections runs without Cloudflare,see here: https://github.com/loki-project/session-android-service/blob/master/java/src/main/java/org/whispersystems/signalservice/loki/api/LokiStorageAPI.kt and https://tools.keycdn.com/geo?host=file.getsession.org as a example for the filesharing service.
the personal instance of Liaizon Wakest